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Fourth Jester Sentenced

Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:36 AM EDT
us-news, royal-order-of-jesters, tills, trowbridge, shrines, stebick, michael-lesinski, sandy-frost-jesters
By Sandy Frost

Royal Order of Jesters logo courtesy of ROJ.

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This DOJ headline says it all:

“Former Erie County Sheriff’s Deputy Sentenced for Failing to Report Jester Prostitution in Canada.”

Former Erie County Deputy Sheriff Michael Lesinski was sentenced today to one year probation and a $1,000 fine for “misprision of a felony.” He pleaded guilty to transporting prostitutes from the Buffalo New York airport to a national Jester convention in Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada in April, 2005 and not reporting the felony to authorities.

He is the fourth sentenced after the Buffalo News first reported on March 8, 2008 that three Jesters were caught in an FBI human trafficking investigation aimed at the owner of four massage parlors that were fronts for prostitution. All pleaded guilty to transporting an illegal alien prostitute from one of the Buffalo massage parlors to a Jester party in Ashland, Kentucky.

Memberships go like this. One must first be a Master Mason before joining groups like the Scottish Rite, the Knights Templar and the Shriners, best known for operating a network of 22 hospitals that previously provided free medical care to burned and crippled children but now takes insurance.

One must be a secretly invited Shriner before joining the Royal Order of Jesters or ROJ. The ROJ is organized into two nonprofit corporations, each classified by the IRS as a 501c10 fraternity and a 501c3 charity. The fraternity has approximately 23,500 members who are organized into 191 "courts" for the exempt purpose of "holding annual events which are devoted to fraternalism and spreading the gospel of mirth and good cheer." Each “court” corresponds to a Shriner temple.

This all started after the Western New York Human Trafficking Task Force was formed in November, 2006. It "is a collaboration of local, state and federal law enforcement agencies and non-government service organizations working together to identify, rescue and assist victims of human trafficking, human smuggling and other civil and human rights offenses in the 17 counties of the district, through aggressive investigation, prosecution, training, education and outreach to law enforcement, non government organizations, vulnerable and affected persons and the general public."

The task force led to a 15 month FBI investigation into prostitution in the Buffalo area. Agents gathered enough evidence to arrest Len Wah Chong, now in prison for six years after pleading guilty to sex trafficking by force, coercion and fraud. She attracted illegal alien prostitutes by promising her establishments were protected by law enforcement.

Investigators listened to phone conversations between Chong and two Jesters in positions of authority as they discussed transporting an illegal alien prostitute to a weekend Jester party in Ashland Kentucky. According to Aaron Becksecker of the Buffalo News:

“As a part of her guilty plea, Chong admitted she used names and titles of men she said were in positions of authority, like 'judge' or 'sheriff,' to exert control over the women. There were at least 11 women whom she employed over the period she operated the parlors.”

According to United States of America v Michael Lesinski, the FBI defines the Jesters for the first time as:

“The Royal Order of Jesters ('ROJ') is a worldwide fraternal organization whose membership is limited to individuals invited to join by other members. The motto of the ROJ is ‘mirth is king.’ The ROJ has local chapters or ‘courts.’ On occasion, a local court or group of local courts in the same geographical area sponsor social gatherings known as ‘books of the play’ or ‘books.’ The sponsoring courts organize the ‘books’ and arrange for food, lodging, and entertainment at the ‘books.’ The ROJ also sponsors a yearly national ‘book,’ the equivalent of a national convention. In April, 2005, the Jester’s national book was held in Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada. As set forth below, a typical feature of a ‘book of the play’ is the presence of prostitutes (‘Jester Girls’) who engage in commercial sex acts with members of the ROJ. Arrangements for the prostitutes are generally made by the organizer of the ‘books,’ or the region hosting the national ‘book.’ On occasion, individual Jesters make arrangements to transport prostitutes to ‘books.’”

According to the complaint, investigators began interviewing several Jesters in January and February of 2008 including John Trowbridge, a retired captain with the Lockport, New York, Police Department. He admitted to attending a number of North American “books” with prostitutes. He described a number of occasions where members of the Buffalo Court, including Ronald Tills, then a New York State Supreme Court Judge, and his law clerk, Michael Stebick, made arrangements for Jester Girls to attend “books.” According to his plea agreement, in or about spring, 2006, Tills admitted to coordinating the prostitute’s travel with national Jester officers.

Trowbridge also described how Tills was in charge of getting the Jester Girls to the national meeting and that the judge asked Lesinski to take care of it. Lesinski, at the time, was a deputy sheriff with the Erie County Sheriff’s Department.

Trowbridge then disclosed that Lesinski rented a limousine to transport about a dozen prostitutes from Buffalo to Canada.

The Jesters’ 2005 tax return lists $70,049 for transportation. The complaint includes a receipt from Lakeview Limousine that indicates a deposit of $980 was paid for by check, with a total cost of $1,175.

The complaint then includes co-conspirator Michael Stebick’s description of how Jester ‘books’ are typically held in hotel hospitality rooms where members can pick from a list of Jester Girl prostitutes. It continues that in April, 2008, Trowbridge provided investigators with contact information for the 13 prostitutes as he’d spoken with each of them as they gathered at the Buffalo airport though there were other prostitutes he’d not spoken with.

All copies of material reprinted or duplicated from "by Sandy Frost" must include the following credit line: From http://sandyfrost.newsvine.com/ Copyright © 2011 by Sandy Frost. Used by permission.

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  • Public Discussion (48)
Sandy Frost

This is about the biggest nonprofit scandal of our time; prostitution at tax payer expense.

  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:40 AM EDT
Dr Know

The bigger scandal is his sentence!!! He admits to transportation not only across state lines but international lines for the purpose of sexual activity and gets PROBATION??? He was a cop. He made arrests that sent people to prison for much lesser crimes.

Talk about "special treatment".

A few token arrests and convictions to soothe the public then back to business as usual...

(BTW... the tracker did NOT alert me to this. I was just checking your column...)

  • 6 votes
Reply#2 - Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:33 AM EDT
Sandy Frost

Hey, Dr. Know,

it's always great to hear from you!

Court documents show that the feds charged Lesinski last June with violating the Mann Act. I don't know the specifics but I suspect that the parties could not agree on this charge so the feds then withdrew the Mann Act charge and in late October, charged him with "the transportation of individuals in interstate and foreign commerce with the intent that such individuals engage in prostitution in violation of Title 18 (Mann Act), did conceal the same, and did not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge orother person in civil or military authority under the United States."

What jumped out at me as I read his plea agreement is that the other defendants don't appear to be sticking to all that Masonic vows of secrecy and protect your brother at all costs stuff. In other words, they are telling all as part of their plea agreements to cooperate with the government.

I read somewhere that another Erie County Sheriff, an ICE agent and other Buffalo area officials were also involved. Remember, the first three were caught taking the illegal alien prostitute to Ashland, Kentucky. Lesinski drove prostitutes to a national convention in Canada.

The point I want to make is this.

It appears that Lesinski's subsequent charge, guilty plea and sentencing may have doomed the Jesters by establishing case law and precedent that if other Jesters know about the prostitution and don't report it, they can be charged and prosecuted like Lesinski.

I'm no authority, but it seems to me that this is a much easier charge than Mann Act violations and, more importantly, could civil and/or criminal RICO statutes then apply because it appears that the Jesters know about the prostitution but don't report it?

Jester wives could band together to launch a class action civil RICO action that provides for treble damages.

Thanks again,

Sandy

  • 2 votes
#2.1 - Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:44 AM EDT
Dr Know

How likely is it that the "Jester Wives" will do anything at all? How many have kicked their husband out? If they don't, no law suit would prevail.

  • 3 votes
#2.2 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:05 PM EDT
Sandy Frost

Yeah, they are in a tough spot. Do they turn a blind eye or get professional help or divorce them? Either way, their retirement years are ruined because of their husband's membership in this secret society. The Jesters claim copyright infringement if their flyers and membership lists and news letters are made public. What kind of a nonprofit group keeps such things secret and writes off expenses of partying with prostitutes?

Then there is this sense of undeserved entitlement just because they're Jesters? I am working on an article about how the Jester national group is fighting for property tax exemption. Again. But this time they owe about $50,000. The correspondence back and forth shows what can happen when officials ask reasonable questions that the Jesters refuse to answer, then expect to get the property tax exemption as they confuse the tax appeal boards with the apples of being a charity with the oranges of being a Masonic fraternity. The problem with this is that the Marion County Assessor failed to grant the exemption, in direct conflict with the IRS decision to grant the Jesters nonprofit status as a charity because of the "museum."

The fight is in state tax court but things are different now. All attorneys need to do is Google "Royal Order of Jesters" to find that which exposes the prostitution and links that building to the latest plea deals out of Buffalo and child sex tourism in Brazil.

How many of those guys who went fishing in Brazil and partied w/those underage girls are married?

Then there are the more serious issues of judicial, legal and police corruption. Cops, judges, sheriffs, attorneys and high profile business leaders all trying to protect each other instead of protecting the public from criminals like themselves?

Then there are woman related issues like misogyny. What kind of group exploits illegal alien prostitutes as well as underage Brazilian Indian girls?

Mind boggling.

Thanks for your input,

Sandy

  • 1 vote
#2.3 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:49 AM EDT
Former Buffalonian

Not only the sick sense of undeserved entitlement just because Mike Lesinski is a Jester, but the same scheming evil person he was growing up. He used his Deputy Sheriff uniform and pretty badge to flash at the BUFF airport to transport the many girls (13 & 14 years old) in a limo over a four day period. AND noone stopped him because he had his Deputy costume on. Well, border patrol sure did and ask him and he lied and lied some more. The receipts he wrote (of course their arrogance "allowed them" to wrote off on their taxes...) the Candian Border Patrol shows the plate numbers going in and out of Canada like a revolving door. Originally, they wanted to charge him with the transportation yo Kentucky (where a whistle blower was conviently executed the day she was to uncover the judge,police & sheriff and how the Jesters were sodomizing these children and not paying up) BUT somehow, Lesinski got away with that-his fratenity of MIRTH fixed that for him & someone else took the hit for Lesinski. What an insult to every investigator, FBI agents who worked diligently & collected piece by piece enough evidence to put him away for ever. For all you parents out there, you need to know exactly where Mike lives, because, so help us God, if he runs into your child, what he's cabable of doing. 'Appears to be a real nice guy & a smoothe talker". I knew him and I left Buffalo over 25 years ago to escape his stalking. Little did I know he would hunt me down because he was a Sheriff and had access to me from state to state. Eventually, I outsmated him. So sad he bull shi--ed his way out of the charges. I hope some good cop out there can accidently run into him after Michaels "out on the to his recordwn" having a bunch of drinks and drags him out to the State line so he can have two violations to tag on. I've never wished evil upon anyone, But I am today-being a free man he is sadly going to hurt a young girls life once again. Please tell us where he lives and if was required to register as a sex offender? Thank you. Be Safe.

Sandy,thank you for all your hard efforts to get all your stories out there. You make me so proud & give me faith that some people WILL go the distance to reveal the layers and layers of lies and manipulation, unethical behavior and disgusting amounts of tax evasion. I beg for you to republish the entire story again. Too much time has passed and people simply have forgotten how long ROJ has been at this-above all, we should be informed of where Mike Lesinski resides & demand he is registered as a sex offender.

  • 1 vote
#2.4 - Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:41 AM EDT
Sandy Frost

Dear Former Buffalonian,

Thank you for your comments but let me caution you about the line between being “newsy” and writing things that could lead to legal action. Please review the Newsvine Code of Honor and understand what we can and can’t write about others. I’m sure Mr. Lesinski has had enough of seeing his name in print. The shame must be unimaginable. But it’s not pleasant to have someone sue Newsvine because of my work. When Richard Schair sued Newsvine after I reported he'd been indicted by the Brazilian Federal Police, his complaint included comments. It happened in 2009 and is something I’d rather not go through again. There are high powered attorneys and investigative types who read every word here and it’s important that my work remains reliable, documented unchallenged.

I know you understand.

What I most appreciate about your comment is your emphasis on the tax fraud. As you pointed out the possibility that dirty cops or corrupt judges do their best to cover this stuff up, I wonder who at the IRS might be using their influence to sidetrack any investigations into the Shriners and/or Jesters? The Senate Finance Committee knows about this. They have oversight over nonprofit groups and should be digging into this. I mean, how many nonprofit groups are described by the FBI and DOJ as having guys in nearly all of 190 groups who get prostitutes for their weekend parties. The tax fraud is an outrage because these guys are really screwing all of us.

One thing I wonder about is if these guys are in some type of suspended animation with their Masonic groups or have they been ostracized, if they’ve not just demitted? The Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of New York or his secretary won't touch this. How cowardly. Worse, it looks like they're protecting their own by not making any public statements about those Masons in law enforcement and in the judiciary being convicted of prostitution and human trafficking?

Please email me what you know about the whistleblower being killed, the underage girls, Canadian border patrol and who else took the hit for Lesinski? Sandyleefrost@yahoo.com I really can't write about things like this unless I see documentation and can call someone to verify it, like at a government agency.

We can start there. If any of this is documented, it will help me as I’m working on my second book, “The Vampires of Charity.”

Thanks again,

Sandy

    #2.5 - Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:39 AM EDT
    Dr Know

    A big part of the problem is that the vast majority of members of the Blue Lodges are totally unaware of any of this. In fact, I believe a large portion of the members of the Shrine itself are kept in the dark. They enjoy the contacts they make and do not want to "rock the boat". It takes a lot of time and effort to get to that level. It is not likely that a new member will start investigating anything unless the presentation of the evidence is so egregious that they have no alternative. This is what the Jesters have counted on for all these years. Remember, the "old" ex-Jesters have confirmed that these activities are far from new.

    As we have seen, many of these people are lawyers and judges. They KNOW how to intimidate with threats of lawsuits much less filing such law suits.

    • 1 vote
    #2.6 - Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:33 PM EDT
    Sandy Frost

    Hey, Dr. Know,

    Thanks for checking in. You are right. And it's so sad to dishonor these elders like this, with these deceptions and hypocricies.

    Hiding behind burned children to party with prostitutes and engage in human trafficking? With dirty cops and judges pimping it up but getting caught?

    Thanks again,

    Sandy

      #2.7 - Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:51 PM EDT
      Reply
      Mavis-2198973

      Are you kidding after all this time he gets a hand slap. My husband will be so excited to hear this ruling since he is the one that organizes these women for several states. I imagine the jesters are very busy making sure there will be enough jestergirls to go around at the National Book of the Play in Las Vegas at The Orleans Hotel April 27 to May 1, 2011 and have missed the Lesinski case. Now that the jesters know they can get away with anything the sky is the limit. The few jesters that are still married should fear their spouses finding out their dirty secrets and the repercussions that follow because we wives don't do hand slaps! Where do we sign up for the class action suit?

      • 1 vote
      Reply#3 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:07 PM EDT
      Sandy Frost

      Dear Mavis,

      Hang in there. My reply is here.

      Thanks,

      Sandy

      • 1 vote
      #3.1 - Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:59 PM EDT
      Reply
      NewShriner

      Let me start by saying that I am a Mason, and a Shriner. That being said, I would like to point out that I do not see how these individuals (ROJ) can call themselves the same. This small, "select" group of individuals (usually composed of men of status and power), give the fraternal organizations of Freemasonry and the Shriners a bad name. They are merely trying to use the umbrella of Masonry and Shrinedom as a means to qualify for non-profit status. It is my opinion that this group be disbanded from Masonry and the Shrine because they do NOT represent either organization. The so called "secrets" of Freemasonry that lead to conspiracy theories and the like are (unfortunately) widely available on the Internet, so there isn't anything left for them to hide. Simply put, Masons are nothing but a group of guys that want to become better men through fellowship and charity. The Shriners share the same beliefs (which is why you have to be a Mason to join). The thing that confuses a lot of people about the Shriners is the fact that the Shriners Hospital and the Shriners Temple are two completely separate entities. Therefore, donations made to the Shriners Hospitals go directly to the hospital and the Temple has nothing to do with it. Donations made to the Shriners Temple, on the other hand, go into the Temple general fund account which is used for Temple maintenance, utility payments, fund raising events (the Circus), and equipment for parade units like the Drum and Bugle Corps, Color Guard, etc. Some of this money will go to the hospitals as well, but it is generally reserved for Temple functions. If any readers are uncomfortable with the Shriners non-profit status or their spending practices, I implore them to still promote charitable donations for the Shriners Hospital. At the end of the day, for Shriners, the children are the reason why we do what we do (at least that is the case for me and all of the Shriners I know and associate with). And I will continue to support and defend that cause no matter what anyone else thinks about me or the organization, because if I can help one child walk, then I have succeeded.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#4 - Sun May 15, 2011 3:47 AM EDT
      Sandy Frost

      Dear NewShriner,

      Bravo and well put. And thank you for making clear the distinction between the charity and fraternity. There is nothing wrong with the concept of a nonprofit fraternity because it's how guys like you want to make society better by making yourselves better. What a wonderful concept. It's great when it works and I want to thank you for sharing what is good and right about the organizations.

      Now it's your job to make that happen; utilize the administrative remedies within Masonry and the Shrine to solve these problems. Heads up, though. At last count, 9 out of 11 on one of the Shrine's govening board were Jesters.

      I hope that you don't meet the fate like that of whistleblowers I've worked with. Were I you, I'd very quietly find like minded Masons and Shriners, especially among the newer initiates. Let your honesty and stand against these abuses be your attractant.

      Thank you for setting such a good example.

      Sandy

      • 1 vote
      #4.1 - Sun May 15, 2011 1:25 PM EDT
      Dr Know

      He is admittedly a "new" Shriner. The reality will hit him when he tries to confront the entrenched "old guard". HE will be labeled as a "trouble maker".

      "All evil needs to flourish is that good men do nothing" - I want to believe that most of the Shriners ARE good men. They just do not want to "lose" the privilege of being a Shriner more than they want to fix what is wrong.

      • 2 votes
      #4.2 - Sun May 15, 2011 2:26 PM EDT
      NewShriner

      Yes I am a new Shriner and yes I know that the "old guard" will have me kicked out of the Temple if I become a "trouble maker". That being said, I have not met anyone that needs to be confronted about things of this nature (though I am sure the day will come eventually if things do not change). If that day comes and I have to choose between my values and being a Shriner, then I will choose to leave the Temple because at the end of the day, I will have to stand before God and be held accountable for my actions. I do not see how anyone that calls themselves a Shriner can live with themselves being involved in a prostitution scandal involving CHILDREN when our mission is to HELP children. But for the moment, I am still a very proud Shriner and I am proud of what I stand for as such. I chose this path as a means to set a good example for my 3 children by showing them to care for others that are less fortunate and to show them that it is both fun and rewarding to participate in these charitable activities. If I am forced to leave the Shrine because I have a conflicting view with an elder that has lost sight of the true mission of the Shrine then so be it. I can still donate and participate in charities helping children outside of the Shriners. I just hope that day never comes because what the Shriners Hospital does for those kids is nothing short of amazing.

      • 1 vote
      #4.3 - Mon May 16, 2011 1:46 AM EDT
      Dr Know

      You will never met someone that needs to be confronted because your attitude (a good and commendable one) will preclude them from being open in your presence. Many of them did not join the Shrine with the intent to engage in these activities. They were seduced by the "high social standing" of those eventually invited to be a Jester.

      Have you even met anyone admitting to be a Jester? They exist in every Temple...

      • 2 votes
      #4.4 - Tue May 17, 2011 10:44 AM EDT
      Sandy Frost

      Dear NewShriner,

      I am re-reading this exchange and wanted to point out how correct you are by writing:

      "This small, "select" group of individuals (usually composed of men of status and power), give the fraternal organizations of Freemasonry and the Shriners a bad name. They are merely trying to use the umbrella of Masonry and Shrinedom as a means to qualify for non-profit status."

      This is all about human trafficking, prostitution and child sex tourism at tax payer expense by those sworn to vows of brotherly love, charity, friendship, etc.

      Thanks,

      Sandy

        #4.5 - Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:59 PM EDT
        Reply
        NewShriner

        Well it is bitter-sweet that I will never have to confront someone over anything like this. It is good because I believe strongly in what the Shriners Hospital does for children, and I love that I can be a part of that. But at the same time, I would like to see these people removed because they are not doing anything but weakening the mission of the Shriners and if it continues their "high social standing" will eventually mean nothing. As far as meeting anyone that admits to being a Jester, no I have not met one. But like I said, I am new to the game and our Temple has a pretty substantial membership so I can almost guarantee that I have met less than 5 percent of our Temple's members. Any ways, I typically do not post comments on forums like this, but I wanted to let people know that these people do not represent the majority and I wanted to let everyone know that the Shriners Hospital has absolutlely NOTHING to do with these people and that their charity work is very important. I just don't want to see the Hospital lose any donors because a few perverts that they have no control over could not keep their pants on.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#5 - Thu May 19, 2011 1:58 AM EDT
        Sandy Frost

        Dear NewShriner,

        Let me know the name of your temple so I can let you know who the Jesters are. Then you'll know who to avoid.

        Unfortunately, the Jesters control the hospital boards. That's why there is so much mismanagement.

        Thanks,

        Sandy

        • 1 vote
        #5.1 - Mon May 23, 2011 4:00 PM EDT
        Dr Know

        NewShriner - What is your take on the East-West Shrine Football Game? You know the one that "raises money" for the Shrine Hospitals? (Sandy and I have a new view for you...)

        • 3 votes
        #5.2 - Mon May 23, 2011 11:10 PM EDT
        Sandy Frost

        Dear DrKnow,

        I want you to know how much I appreciate your following this for all these years. I know many of my articles are dry, technical and boring but at the end of the day, numbers don't lie.

        Truth does not fear investigation.

        Thanks again,

        Sandy

        PS. Those guys at the East West Game never sent me their tax returns when I asked for them but from what I could tell, the director kept getting big raises year after year yet it lost money.

        • 1 vote
        #5.3 - Mon May 23, 2011 11:37 PM EDT
        Sandy Frost

        Dear NewShriner,

        When dollars are so hard to come by, donors need to know the truth about the Shriners. I understand it is difficult to read harsh criticiisms of your brothers as it's either insinuated or documented that some of them are suspected of sex crimes or are felons and sex offenders.

        Thank you for hanging in here and making your points clearly while trying to address all sides.

        Sandy

          #5.4 - Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:05 PM EDT
          Reply
          NewShriner

          I guess I will work my way from the bottom up. It is no secret that I am completely in the dark when it comes to any perceived or real scandal when it comes to the Shriners (either the fraternal organization or the charity). All I know about the East vs. West game is that it is basically a bowl game put on by the Shriners Temple to raise money fro the Shriners Hospital. So like I said, as far as any "unethical" distribution of money goes, I am not privy to that information. And as far as I can tell, any claims of such would be based on hearsay for the simple fact because, as you pointed out yourself, they did not release their tax documents. And yes, I also know that you said "Truth does not fear investigation" and that is a completely valid point. However, you can call me delusional, or call me biased, but I think it is unfair to pass judgement on something like this (I am referring specifically to the East-West game because I have read some of your other articles and it seems you have exercised due diligence in most other cases) without concrete proof. I appreciate your offer to let me know who the Jesters are in my Temple, but like I said on 5/16/11, I will not associate with anyone with questionable character, and I will not hesitate to report any such activities even if it means that I must leave the Shrine. Besides, I am the type of person that will give anyone a chance to prove themselves. I do not want to have any predisposed opinions about someone I haven't met. I just don't think it is fair. Again I want to reiterate that I feel the Shriners Hospital is a great charity with a great cause and my main goal is to remind readers that this entire thread is based on the Jesters (an extremely small "social elite" group) and their corruption. And while I can not confirm or deny how many Jesters are on the Shrines governing board because I simply don't know and have to rely on what I am told, that doesn't mean that the Shriners are all thieves that use the Shriners Hospital as a cover for illegal activities. I can't emphasize enough how important the Shriners Hospital is for children all over North America, and that it is a worthy charity that has the misfortune of sharing the name with a fraternity (Shriners) that has a sub-group (ROJ or Jesters) attached to it that has few bad apples associated with it. It just seems to me that attacking these few individuals in this way is like using a nuke to kill a mosquito.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#6 - Thu May 26, 2011 3:07 AM EDT
          Sandy Frost

          Dear New Shriner,

          Thanks again for your comments.

          You wrote:

          “And as far as I can tell, any claims of such would be based on hearsay for the simple fact because, as you pointed out yourself, they did not release their tax documents.”

          Just because the East West director never gave me the tax returns as requested doesn’t mean that I didn’t find other ways to get them. It’s illegal for a nonprofit group to ignore requests for their tax returns and, in fact, penalties accrue for doing so. The national Jester groups as well as the East West Shrine game have ignored my requests for their tax returns and thousands in potential fines could be assessed.

          FYI, here’s an article about the East West game. Dr. Know is particularly concerned about this because the game has lost millions instead of raising money for the hospitals. Here is another article about the five areas of Shriner corruption.

          You wrote:

          “Again I want to reiterate that I feel the Shriners Hospital is a great charity with a great cause and my main goal is to remind readers that this entire thread is based on the Jesters (an extremely small "social elite" group) and their corruption. And while I can not confirm or deny how many Jesters are on the Shrines governing board because I simply don't know and have to rely on what I am told, that doesn't mean that the Shriners are all thieves that use the Shriners Hospital as a cover for illegal activities.”

          This article, “Management by Mirth,” reports eleven out of twelve of SHC trustees are Jesters, fourteen out of twenty one of those listed on the SHC 2006 tax returns are Jesters and nine out of fourteen of those listed on the 2006 fraternal tax return are Jesters.

          It's not just a few bad apples that are the Jesters. It's the Shriner leadership, from the top on down. This online document depository has all the information you need to find Jesters within your own temple.

          And I agree totally that the Shriners provide a valuable service and it’s great that you are dedicating yourself to helping the kids. It’s just that the faithful, such as yourself, are being brainwashed and used to perpetuate the illusion while the corrupt hide behind the kids, using their positions of public trust for personal gain. Please take a moment to read the articles I’ve written about PermaDerm ™ because that is the worst, using little burned kids in a study so bad that the FDA had to shut it down.

          It's up to Shriners like you to clean things up, if it's not too late. Like I've written before, oversight by law enforcement is no way to run a nonprofit group.

          Thanks again,

          Sandy

          • 1 vote
          #6.1 - Fri May 27, 2011 9:46 PM EDT
          Reply
          NewShriner

          Sandy,

          Thanks for posting the links to other pertinent articles. I want you to know that I am not questioning your credibility and I apologize if my comments hinted to that fact. I do appreciate that you are trying to bring this kind of stuff to the forefront, because at the end of the day, all it is going to do is remove those in power that are destroying the SHC's mission and hopefully restore faith in the Shriners. I guess the reason why I am playing devil's advocate here is because I am the type person that questions everything because it helps me understand the subject better (I do the same thing to my wife all the time and she hates it, but it is a personality trait that is likely never going to change). As far as making changes, I would live to be a "hero" for the Shriners and the SHC. Unfortunately, I do not have the political or financial clout to afford me any influence in any aspect regarding the ROJ or any corrupt activities. And as Dr. Know mentioned in a previous post, I will never meet someone that needs to be confronted because my attitude (a good and commendable one) will preclude them from being open in my presence. Therefore, I am almost 100% certain that I will never be in a position where I will be "allowed" to witness any kind of corruption. On the off chance that I do witness any corruption, I am only one person and I would most likely be retaliated against as others have been and get kicked out of the fraternity (which doesn't scare me, but it doesn't make any progress towards resolution). The only way I can really see any of this coming to an end is the removal of the ROJ from the Shriners ranks. I do not think it is too late for the Shriners to turn things around, and that is why I keep emphasizing that most of the problems stem from the ROJ and that they are the "elite few" (even though they compose the majority of the Shriners leadership). I want to give people the hope that most of the Shriners (like me), are good people that are only in it to help underprivileged children have a better life. I know the Shriner's reputation is damaged, but it is not destroyed. From what I've read from your articles and what I have researched outside of this site, you have been at this for a few years now and you have even written a book on the subject- Shriners Shame: The Dark Side of The Worlds Greatest Philanthropy (you're welcome for the plug.... j/k). My hope is that you will see this through to the end and write another book on the subject- Shriners Glory: The Rebirth of The World's Greatest Philanthropy (Just a suggestion on the title but I think its catchy).

          -NewShriner

          P.S. I have previously read the article on PermaDerm™, and I agree that it is a troubling article. In fact, of all that articles you have written that I have read, I found this the most disturbing. I can not begin to speculate why this research team would carry themselves in this manner or why they were allowed to do so for so long. I can only hope that those involved are (or will be soon) removed from their positions and replaced by competent individuals.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#7 - Sat May 28, 2011 3:50 AM EDT
          Sandy Frost

          Dear NewShriner,

          I agree, that the PermaDerm (tm) situation is most troubling. To me, the biggest problem is the lack of disclosure, especially the conflicts of interest, by the doctors in charge of the study. These doctors should have disclosed that they stand to make millions, yet fought to keep this information secret, even when asked by the University of Cincinnati Institutional Review Board. I've been reading SEC filings and comparing information in grant applications to FDA violations spelled out in a year long audit of the PermaDerm (tm) study and it looks like no one followed the most basic of rules.

          These institutions, the schools and hospitals, are nonprofit and, again, we see the manipulation of these tax exempt groups for the financial benefit of leaders in positions to make back room deals.

          I'll be writing "Problems with PermaDerm (tm)" soon. I believe a Humanitarian Use Designation application is before the FDA right now and there are people holding their breath to see if it gets approved because they stand to make millions. The problem is that a handful seem to have conspired for decades to use little burned kids as guinea pigs in human experimentation so bad the FDA shut it down.

          Anyway, you are right. Exploiting the very children the Shriners are supposed to help is the worst.

          Thanks,

          Sandy

            #7.1 - Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:48 PM EDT
            Reply
            Dr Know

            "All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to stand by and do nothing".

            The "good" men in the Shriners value the membership (and prestige that goes with it) highly.

            As you noted, the main thing that prevents exposure is the clear threat that anyone exposing such activity will lose the "privilege" of membership. Only "team players" are in the Jesters.

            You are already rationalizing -

            I am only one person and I would most likely be retaliated against as others have been and get kicked out of the fraternity (which doesn't scare me, but it doesn't make any progress towards resolution).

            That suggests that no resolution is possible in your mind. There are many like you. "I can't do anything about it SOOooo I will just continue enjoying the benefits and "believe" that more good is being done than harm.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#8 - Mon May 30, 2011 12:57 PM EDT
            NewShriner

            Dr Know,

            I am not rationalizing anything. You are reading something into my statement that isn't there.

            "I am only one person and I would most likely be retaliated against as others have been and get kicked out of the fraternity (which doesn't scare me, but it doesn't make any progress towards resolution). That suggests that no resolution is possible in your mind. There are many like you. "I can't do anything about it SOOooo I will just continue enjoying the benefits and "believe" that more good is being done than harm."

            My comment is actually referring to the fact that there AREa lot of Shriners that DO value their membership more than their morals. I am NOT that person. If you want to Quote me and presume to know how I feel about this and how I would conduct myself IF I am ever presented with this situation, then use this quote from my post #4.3 - Mon May 16, 2011 1:46 AM EDT

            "I have not met anyone that needs to be confronted about things of this nature (though I am sure the day will come eventually if things do not change). If that day comes and I have to choose between my values and being a Shriner, then I will choose to leave the Temple because at the end of the day, I will have to stand before God and be held accountable for my actions."

            At the end of the day, the only reason why I posted anything on this thread is because I DObelieve in the good of the Shriners. And that being said, I abhor anything that has to do with the ROJ. They do NOT represent the Shrine or Masonic views at all. I hate that the Shriners as a whole are being drug through the mud due to the actions of the ROJ. It seems that the Shriners are being held accountable for the ROJ's actions. Its kind of like saying that ALL Muslims are terrorists, or ALL Germans are Nazis. The ROJ only makes up around 6% of the Shriners membership, yet 100% of the Shriners and (more importantly) the Shriners Hospital are being held accountable and punished for something they are not guilty of.

            Everyone here seems to have a catch phrase.

            Sandy Frost: "Oversight by law enforcement is no way to run a nonprofit group."

            Dr Know: "All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to stand by and do nothing."

            So here's mine: "You can't judge the masses by the actions of the few."

            Consider this my last post on this comment. Sandy (Ms. Frost if you prefer) I do appreciate the work you are doing to try to expose this kind of thing because it is what needs to be done to rid the great organization of the parasites that are destroying it. I simply ask that more care be taken in placing blame where blame is due. The Shriners and the Shrineres Hospital should not suffer at the hands of the ROJ. And yes, I do realize that there are non ROJ members of the Shrine that are guilty of embezzlement and other such crimes. That being said, name ONE organization (charitable or not) world-wide that has not had any scandal or corruption in its ranks. Thank you for your time, but I am no longer going to try to present my thoughts to someone that is just going to try to shoot holes in them (Dr. Know I am talking to you).

            • 1 vote
            Reply#9 - Sat Jun 4, 2011 5:21 AM EDT
            Dr Know

            Your original statement stands for itself.

            The Jesters DO represent the Shrine because THEY are in charge of it by their continued election to the boards of the Shrine Temples. The "innocent" membership continues to put them in power.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#10 - Sat Jun 4, 2011 5:49 AM EDT
            Sandy Frost

            Dear Dr. Know,

            Thanks so much for your participation! And you are right. The Jesters are not only in the driver's seat, I've found contracts dating back to 1997 as I've researched thePermaDerm (tm) situation. These are agreements between parties that confirm some of my suspicions about Shriner leaders who may or may not also be Jesters who use their mortgages to buy low and sell high in products being developed at Shriner hospitals, like PermaDerm (tm).

            What I've found needs to end up in the hands of Inspector Generals and/or investigators at the FDA, NIH, DoD and the SEC. Experts have told me this is the worst example of clinical research fraud they've ever seen.

            What I've found about the development and commercialization of PermaDerm (tm) makes the Jester stuff look like a parking ticket.

            But you already knew that.

            Thanks again for following all of this all these years.

            Sandy

              #10.1 - Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:01 PM EDT
              Reply
              Sandy Frost

              Hey, hey, hey.

              New Shriner, don't take any of this personally. If a gopher pops his head up, well, it's kind of like "Whack a Mole" around here sometimes.

              Other times, it's like a knife fight.

              Dr. Know has followed my work for years and knows that this investigation is document driven.

              You wrote that you are only one person.

              Me too. And look what I have done? I have single-handedly stood up to expose these crimes and corruptions.

              If you choose to categorize the Jesters as just a few bad apples and not post anymore, let me encourage you to read my work on PermaDerm (tm) and the failed research done at the Shriner Burn Hospital in Cincinnati.

              I have been concentrating on the Jester "beat" lately as so much is happening and there is so much I am waiting to write about as things grind through court systems. And I am trying to get in a place where I can write my second book "The Vampires of Charity" which will be about the Jesters.

              I have also been working with an editor and am nearly sure that I have a magazine cover story about the Jesters coming out this next month.

              Once the Jesters are the subject of a Congressional hearing and have their nonprofit status jerked, I can concentrate more on the cultured skin substitute situation, which directly relates to the Shriners' hospitals. This scandal makes the Jesters look like a jay-walking ticket.

              To use little burned kids in a study so bad that the FDA shut it down so a handful can make millions? Maytbe billions? The relationships are so involved that I needed to make a flow chart to describe all the insider hand shaking.

              The answer, New Shriner, is adherence to nonprofit transparency, disclosure and accountability. There seems to be no ability to self-police, otherwise new blood like you would be able to initiate a campaign to clean things up.

              Unfortunately, you and those like you will be subjected to the worst retaliation from those with so much to keep hidden. There are those who think nothing of ruining that lives of those who question them. I've seen it and have been targeted by Shriner and Jester efforts, and those of their accomplices, to shut me up.

              Again, I am one person. If I can do all of this, imagine what you can do?

              Thanks and don't give up or go away.

              Keep fighting, even if the battles are within yourself, to do what is right.

              Sandy

              • 2 votes
              Reply#11 - Sat Jun 4, 2011 4:50 PM EDT
              NewShriner

              Dr Know,

              "The 'innocent' membership continues to put them in power." ......... Of course we do. And here is why, as quoted from this very article:

              "One must be a SECRETLYinvited Shriner before joining the Royal Order of Jesters or ROJ."

              ROJ membership is so obscure, that Sandy has deemed it necessary to compile an on-line database ("This on-line document depository has all the information you need to find Jesters within your own temple.") listing who the members are and provided me (a Shriner) with the link to "discover" who the ROJ members are in my Temple....... But I guess as an "innocent" member that continues to put them in power, I should have already known that.

              Sandy,

              I have already read your article on PermaDerm™ (see Post Script from post #7 - Sat May 28, 2011 3:50 AM EDT). Now I have not researched this subject as thoroughly as you have, but I'm pretty sure that since "eleven out of twelve of SHC trustees are Jesters, fourteen out of twenty one of those listed on the SHC 2006 tax returns are Jesters and nine out of fourteen of those listed on the 2006 fraternal tax return are Jesters." it seems that just MAYBE the ROJ had something to do with the corruption surrounding the failed research study "so bad that the FDA shut it down so a handful can make millions? Maybe billions?" Everything keeps pointing back to the Jesters so like I said, place blame where blame is due......."You can't judge the masses by the actions of the few." One more thing. I do not plan on giving up. I am not going away. I knew when I said consider this my last post, that it would not be my last post. And like I said on more than one occasion, I am glad you are doing the work that you are doing. I just want there to be more distinct lines between ROJ and the Shriners because they (the ROJ) are the parasitic minority in the Fraternity and a cancer that needs to be completely cut out. Just out of curiosity, what made you target the Shriners when there are far worse charities out there? Shriners got 3 out of 4 stars (missing the 4th star by only .27 points) on charitynavigator.org while other charities like the Mayo Clinic received only 2 stars.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#12 - Sun Jun 5, 2011 3:20 AM EDT
              Sandy Frost

              Dear NewShriner,

              Again, you are right about the Jesters and the PermaDerm (tm) situation. One of the worst things I've found is how you members are used by these corrupt leaders to perpetuate the illusion of helping the kids. These leaders and doctors and others associated w/the commercialization of this burn treatment stand to make millions off the suffering of these poor children.

              We'll have to wait and see what the FDA does. No approval so far.

              Thanks again,

              Sandy

                #12.1 - Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:12 PM EDT
                Reply
                Dr Know

                The "secret" is out. Several Jesters have been jailed. No great outcry from the "grass roots" membership has occurred. So far it is "business as usual". You can judge the masses by their failure to TAKE action. Do you really suggest that the members of the Shrine are ignorant of the existence of the Royal Order of Jesters? Not only do they not know who the Jesters are but they even do not know the organization exists???

                • 1 vote
                Reply#13 - Sun Jun 5, 2011 7:18 AM EDT
                Sandy Frost

                Great point, Dr. Know. If we extrapolate this out, it's the Masons at the Grand Lodge level of every state that needs to clean this up but the problem is that officers at this level are also Jesters. Judge Tills had to step down as an officer of the Grand Lodge of New York. This link to the Grand Lodge of NY asks that Louis Juers be contacted for Family Day at Westpoint, with an email of LoutheImp@msn.com. This guy is listed w/the same email on tax returns as a Jester Impresario, yet he's an officer in the Grand Lodge.

                Like I've written before, oversight by law enforcement is no way to run a nonprofit group.

                I think we're seeing the Jesters' perfect storm, especially if any of those who went to Brazil are called to testify in the case of those girls suing Schair. There are other cases, especially the property tax exemption case before the Indiana Board of Tax Appeals. There is a strong possiblity that the Jesters might lose their appeal if the state of Indiana raises the possiblity that the Jesters National HQ building in Indianapolis is used to coordinate the Book of the Play nationwide, described by the Feds as prostitution parties.

                Thanks again,

                Sandy

                  #13.1 - Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:22 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  Dr Know

                  “When I joined, they told me their motto was, ‘What you hear here, what you see here, stays here when you leave here,’ ” said J. L. Edwards, a former member from South Carolina. “Everybody’s told to keep the secret.”

                  Edwards, a farmer in his 60s, said he belonged to the Jesters for seven years, ending in 1998. Edwards said he quit because he felt guilty about things he saw at the Jesters’ gatherings.

                  Edwards told The Buffalo News the incidents he witnessed included:

                  • Prostitutes walking around parties, wearing only panties, soliciting Jesters to meet them later in their hotel rooms.

                  • “Sex contests” involving prostitutes and Jesters members, performing in front of large groups of Jesters.

                  • Off-duty cops in uniform, making sure that no non-Jesters entered the rooms where activities were going on.

                  “You had prominent people at these books — ministers, police chiefs. It’s an elite group, people like Judge Tills,” Edwards said. “A lot of these guys were prominent men in their 60s and 70s. They have beautiful young women with them, and it makes them feel like they’re a young buck again.”

                  His action - resigned from the Jesters but said nothing...

                  “I quit the Jesters more than 20 years ago, and this kind of thing has been going on at least 40 or 50 years,” said Malcolm “Mutt” Herring, 90, of Montgomery, Ala. “I quit because I don’t drink, and I don’t mess around with other women, other than my wife. Going to one of their events was like going to a whorehouse.”

                  His action - resigned from the Jesters but said nothing...

                  The head of the Jesters says the Buffalo "operation" was an isolated incident and NOTHING like it has ever occurred elsewhere. Seems that is not the case BUT the people that knew, disliked it, and resigned, did nothing to stop the practice.

                  I reiterate that my family has a long history of Shrine membership. I do not know if they knew of the Jesters.

                  • 2 votes
                  Reply#14 - Sun Jun 5, 2011 7:29 AM EDT
                  Dr Know

                  This website masonicleaks discusses wrongful actions taken in the Blue/Grand Lodges by those at the top.

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#15 - Sun Jun 5, 2011 7:56 AM EDT
                  Sandy Frost

                  I saw this site and wonder why they don't reference my work?

                  Discrimination, I say.

                  How dare a woman raise such criticisms?

                    #15.1 - Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:24 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    Dr Know

                    Here is a quote taken from Sandy's book

                    As Hill began asking questions, he learned of a series of investigative articles published in 1986 by the Orlando Sentinel that the popular advice columnist, Ann Landers, characterized as “distressing.”
                    In response to a reader, Landers wrote:
                    “The Sentinel reported that, in 1985, the Shriners kept a whopping 71 percent of the money raised, about $21.7 million. This went to pay for a range of clubhouse expenses, including the upkeep of private bars, restaurants and golf courses. They also used the money to pay for conventions, travel and entertainment for their 880,000 members and, again, fund-raising. The Shrine’s most lucrative source of income is the circuses throughout the country. They generated about $23 million in 1985, the paper reported. The records show that LESS THAN 2 percent, or $346,251, went to the medical care of the children. I find this shocking. The Sentinel cited Internal Revenue Service records showing that although the Shrine is the richest charity in the nation, it gave its 22 hospitals for children less than one-third of the gross collected from the public in 1984. The REMAINDER was spent on food, travel, entertainment, fraternal ceremonies and fund-raising.”

                    The problem is anything but NEW...

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#16 - Sun Jun 5, 2011 8:14 AM EDT
                    NewShriner

                    Come on Dr (don't) Know. I am going to respond to all of your posts in order from top to bottom. Here we go.

                    1. You spend a lot of time trying to shoot holes in what I say by twisting what I am saying around. I NEVER said that Shriners were unaware of the ROJ. I said that when we vote for our leadership, we do not always know who belongs to the ROJ (hence the SECRET membership thing). Some will publicly claim membership in the ROJ and others do not. So when we vote, we can not guarantee that we are not voting for a ROJ member. As far as a "grass-roots outcry", I personally know several individuals that want nothing more than to have the Jesters completely removed from the Shriners ranks. The problem is that they hold a majority of the positions of power and until that changes, there is little that the everyday once-a-month Shriner can do to change that unless we can figure out a way to unite against these guys. So get off your soap box and stop trying to discredit what I am trying to say because at the end of the day, all I want is for the Shriners to regain the prestige and honor that these @*$-holes have destroyed.

                    2. While I appreciate you taking the time to pull out all of those quotes in post #14- Sun Jun 5, 2011 7:29 AM EDT, it was completely unnecessary. First of all, I already read the article so I hope you didn't invest too much time on that. Second, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with main-stream Shriners and EVERYTHING to do with the ROJ. The actions of the ROJ have been well established so that fact that you can show the lack of action from these "former Jesters" proves nothing other than the fact that once a Jester always a Jester. That has nothing to do with Shriners like me. I (nor any other upright and respectful Shriner) can not be held accountable for the actions of any ROJ member, past or current. So why bring it up?

                    3. I knew it would only be a matter of time before this conversation focused its attention on Freemasons. People fear the unknown...... but all they have to do is ask. Any ways, I'm not going down that path. This discussion is about the ROJ NOT Freemasons....... and to stem the reply that I already know is coming, yes I am aware that "All Jesters are Shrinres and all Sriners are Masons, BUT NOT ALL MASONS ARE SHRINERS." So for now, lets leave the Masons out of this one. If you want to bad-mouth the Masons, then go to one of the many anti-Masonic websites and vent to your hearts content.

                    4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 1985, The Shriners and the Shriners Hospital did NOT differentiate from one another when accepting donations. That was one of the major flaws in the charity that has been resolved. It is now clearly stated where the donated money goes. Let me put it this way. TODAY all of the proceeds from the Shriners Circus goes directly to the "Fraternal Organization's" general fund and it says that on the actual ticket. From there, votes are held at the stated meetings to help determine where the money is spent i.e. to fix a toilet, buy fund raising supplies, buy new hypo-alergenic pillows for the hospital, pay the power bill, yes even have a party for fraternal fellowship. IN 1985 all of the proceeds from the Shriners Circus still went directly to the "Fraternal Organization's" general fund. The difference is that that fact was NOT stated on the actual ticket. From there, the money was handled then the same way it is today. So given this information, the 71% of the money raised going to the Fraternity and NOT the Hospital is irrelevant because there is no way of knowing how much of the money was destined for the Hospital or the Fraternity in the first place. Lets look at the numbers now. Stick with me because this may get a little confusing. If the Shriners kept 71% of the money donated to them ($21.7 million) then that means that they raised somewhere in the neighborhood of $30.6 million in 1985. The article says that the Circus raised $23 million which, as it is now clearly stated, goes directly to the Temple general fund (In this case, minus the $346,251). So take that out of the equation and you are left with roughly $7.9 million raised in 1985. The remaining 29% of the $30.6 million ($8.9 million) was donated to the hospital, so not only did they donate every single penny raised from other fundraisers, they managed to find another $1 million somewhere (Soda pull-tabs maybe???? I doubt it but hey we are writing a fiction here right?) to reach that number for a grand total of 112% of the fund raising profits donated (Just a touch more thatn the reported 29%). I don't know I thought that was pretty impressive. Back to my point. There have been laws enacted because of things like this. An organization is now required to specify exactly where the donated money is going and this wasn't the case in 1985 so it can not be proved where donated money was supposed to go.

                    Well this has been fun and exciting, and I am waiting with baited breath to see how you contort this post to fit your anti-MasonShrinerJesterFraternity rhetoric. I do not know why I bother though. I am OBVIOUSLY NEVER going to get anywhere with you and it seems to me that you and Sandy are the only two reading this. It seems as if I am spinning my wheels trying to convince a blind person that he can see if he would just open his eyes. If you would stop trying to prove that you are right and get off your soap box for just a fraction of a second, you might actually see that I am on your side when it comes to the corruption in the organization. I am not sure how many times I have already said this, and I frankly don't feel like milling through all of my posts to count, but I agree that the Jesters are "foul, festering boils on the @*$ of the Fraternity." I am GLAD that Sandy is working to expose the Jesters so they can be removed from the Fraternity. But that's it. It is the ROYAL ORDER OF JESTERS behind all of this corruption, greed, scandal, prostitution etc. NOT THE SHRINERS and I just want to make that point clear. So unless you have something constructive to say besides wasting your time re-posting quotes about things I have already read, or trying to prove me wrong about something when I am on your side when it comes to the ROJ, then please don't comment. I have no desire to continue to try to talk to you if you are just going to try to make it a point to try to prove me wrong. Besides, there are far better things to do with your time on a Sunday morning. I for one was out fishing with my children. Just a thought.

                    -NewShriner

                    P.S. It looks like this one is going to turn into a knife fight. Oh yeah I almost forgot my line: "You can't judge the masses by the actions of the few."

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#17 - Mon Jun 6, 2011 3:16 AM EDT
                    Dr Know

                    I clearly said that many in my family were Masons AND Shriners.

                    The vast majority just want to go on without caring to clean house. They believe that it is better to 'belong and not rock the boat'. As you admitted, if you ask too many questions, you may be removed from membership.

                    Thanks for the reference for "not knowing" about how much money was intended for the Shriner's Hospital. They used to brag on television during that game that "ALL proceeds from this game go to the Shriner's Hospital". That was a nice lie that everyone WANTED to believe. They now say SOME proceeds do (2%???)

                    I wish your passion and hate towards me would be directed to someone who HAS lied and cheated to the public about charity.

                    I never said I was against Freemasons or Shriners. I am against those that have perverted those organizations. I am against those that know such things are going on but choose to look the other way or vehemently defend them.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#18 - Mon Jun 6, 2011 10:13 AM EDT
                    NewShriner

                    Many in my family are auto mechanics, that doesn't make me Mr. Goodwrench. Are YOU a Mason or Shriner? You seem to know so much about these fraternities, I am just wondering if you KNOW or if you just know what you have heard or been told. By the way, I was 7 in 1985 so I can not comment on what was "claimed" 26 years ago. I am just shedding a new light on the info that YOU and SANDY are giving me, and weather or not it was truthfully disclosed as to where the money was supposed to go was not mentioned in the article you quoted from Sandy's book. I was just pointing out that the "numbers" (that don't lie), are not an accurate representation simply because there was no distinction as to the moneys destination. And as I also said, that problem has been fixed. By the way, "They now say SOME proceeds do (2%???)" is not a true statement about where the money from the circus goes. It says on the ticket that "ALL proceeds go to Shriner's International" so if 2% is all that makes it to the Hospital, then so be it. Moving on. Below are a couple of quotes that I have pulled from YOUR previous posts:

                    1. "I am against those that know such things are going on but choose to look the other way or vehemently defend them."

                    -AND-

                    2. "There are many like you. "I can't do anything about it SOOooo I will just continue enjoying the benefits and "believe" that more good is being done than harm."

                    THIS is why I am directing so much "passion and hate" towards you. You do no know me or anything about my character, yet you continue to attack my character and label me as if I have personal and actionable knowledge about any of the organizations "scandal". HOWEVER, lets get one thing clear, I do not hate you...... I do not even know you. I hate the fact that you are trying to lump me (and every other honorable, honest Shriner) into the "corrupt" category simply because I am trying to point out that this problem (the Jesters) is having enough of a negative impact on the Shriners Hospital. The last thing the Shriners Hospital needs, is people like you trying to discredit EVERYTHING they do because the super-rich, social-elite, good-ol-boy JESTERS are running wild. And you know what? I would rather be passionate about something POSITIVE like the Shriners Hospital's mission instead of being passionate about the NEGATIVE of an organization or towards "someone who HAS lied and cheated to the public about charity". I personally think trying to find the BAD in everything is unhealthy, so I will leave that mission to you and everyone else that has nothing good to say and spend their life looking at the glass as half-empty. Besides, I could never decide who to focus on. For someone that does not oppose the Masons or Shriners, you sure act quick to point out their flaws, and I can not recall once when you have said anything positive about either organization (Unless you consider admitting that you have family members in both organizations a positive comment).

                    -NewShriner "You can't judge the masses by the actions of the few."

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#19 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 2:39 AM EDT
                    Sandy Frost

                    Sorry for not writing sooner.

                    I have been very busy getting ready to announce a cover story in an international magazine and have been networking with other journalists as part of my service on the SPJ National Diversity Committee. I want to provide expertise for things like our youngest celebrating after the Portland City Council voted unanimously to provide health care for transgender reassignment surgery. And a high school friend was out here on book tour, so I’m writing about him.

                    So I’ve been way busy.

                    OK, you guys.

                    Everyone wants to be right.

                    I get it.

                    Your strong, vigorous debate is awesome!

                    New Shriner, I think that Dr. Know and I are just concerned for you.

                    And FYI, this is not a knife fight.

                    You and he are just chitty chatting over coffee as far as I am concerned.

                    Knife fights are like when I was named as a party of interest in Shriner lawsuit to get a hold of protected communications or when Shriners conspired to get my work censored offline or when Richard Schair unsuccessfully sued Newsvine after I reported his indictment or when a Jester came after me with copyright infringement complaints to get me to reveal my sources in federal court.

                    Stuff like that.

                    One of the worst things about all of this is how you members are treated like mushrooms and used by leaders so they can use their positions of public trust for personal gain. Sure the networking is great. I’m sure it’s neat to make a call and be “connected” to whomever to expedite your own self interests.

                    That’s how things get done. It’s called “business.”

                    The problem is that as one goes deeper and rises through the ranks, the emphasis is not so much on helping the kids but instead on helping oneself.

                    These guys are so out of control that the feds convicted Jesters who took illegal alien sex slaves to a weekend Jester party and questioned others about sexually exploiting underage girls in Brazil.

                    Then there’s the research fraud of using the little burned kids as guinea pigs to make a buck, with the strong possibility of defrauding the government.

                    New Shriner, I updated my bio for you with some of my background and my take on things.

                    I ultimately described this as a huge pile of @!$%# of corruption and compared the Shriners to the Mafia with clowns.

                    Thanks for being here.

                    Sandy

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#20 - Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:17 PM EDT
                    NewShriner

                    Sandy,

                    First of all, you don't need to apologize. I realize that there are other things going on in your world, just as I have other things going on as well. Second, you and Dr. Know do not need to worry about me. For starters, I will NEVER put myself in a position where my moral values will come into question. As far as fearing legal action or retaliation towards me if I do encounter and confront any issue, don't worry about that either. I work in a prison around convicted felons that love nothing more than to harass staff with frivolous law suits (because I allegedly stole their property or violated their Civil Rights etc...), so I've been down that road and I keep a good lawyer on retainer for that reason. All of that aside, I agree with your post 99.9%. The 0.1% I don't agree with, and has been my main point of contention throughout all of this, is your second-to-last sentence: "I ultimately described this as a huge pile of @!$%# of corruption and compared the Shriners to the Mafia with clowns." I understand why the you and other media say it that way though. I know that a headline highlighting "Shriners Corruption" will grab more eyes than one that says "Jesters Corruption" simply because few people are familiar with who the Jesters are, but almost everyone knows who the Shriners are. I just hate to see a great organization that admittedly has some major problems in its management lose any more of its credibility than necessary. While I support what you are trying to do, I feel that too much generalization may irreparably damage the Shriners and ultimately, the Shriners Hospitals. That is why I now conclude every post with "You can't judge the masses by the actions of the few." I want everyone to know that there are still good and honorable Shriners in the organization that hate the state that the organization is in and want nothing more than to rid itself of these vermin called "Jesters".

                    -NewShriner

                    • 2 votes
                    #20.1 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:00 AM EDT
                    Dr Know

                    I find it interesting that instead of looking for problems within, the writer has chosen to attack me instead. I have not lied to anyone about where funds are going.

                    While the Shrine and the Shriner's Hospitals are "separate" entities on paper. They are run by the same people.

                    I put in time in the Mason's. I got tired of opposing thousands of dollars being spent on new drapes because the wife of the newest Poobah wanted them and other such boondoggles (of course a "brother" was going to do the work)

                    "You have to go along to get along" (Stop complaining if you wish to EVER get anywhere)

                    With that, I will sign off this contentious "discussion". Once again, SunTzu is correct. "If you cannot defeat the message attack the messenger".

                    • 2 votes
                    #20.2 - Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:17 AM EDT
                    Reply
                    NewShriner

                    Glad to see that you are giving up on a "contentious 'discussion'" since me, you and Sandy are the only ones participating in it. And, for the 373rd time (exaggeration), I am on your side on this discussion when it comes to the actions of the Jesters. And for the record, I am not attacking you, I am attacking your pretentious attitude that seems to give you the inside track on my, thoughts, values and intentions. If you are referring to my post #17- Mon Jun 6, 2011 3:16 AM EDT as an attack, than I am sorry for having my own opinion and that is different from yours. I guess you are used to being able to speak your mind and just have everyone nod their head and agree with you. Any way, the bottom line is this. The ROJ is a cancer that needs to be removed from the Shriners organizations. But don't get on your soap box and try to say that ALL Shriners are just as bad as the Jesters because that is not the case. "YOU CAN'T JUDGE THE MASSES BY THE ACTIONS OF THE FEW."

                    -NewShriner

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#21 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:25 AM EDT
                    Dr Know

                    I see you have nothing new to add and still attack ME.

                    I question the morals of the masses when the proof of their actions have been known for over 3 decades. Seems the masses have decided to be ostriches... I can judge the inaction of the masses. "Don't rock the boat"... Well, I am rocking your boat. So far the action you have taken is to attack me for my attitude. Let me know if you take the same umbrage in your Shrine Temple.

                      #21.1 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:06 PM EDT
                      NewShriner

                      Look, if you took anything in my last post as an attack on YOU, then you really should probably find a different person to try to discuss this topic with. Nothing in my last post was intended as an "attack" on you. Besides, the only reason I even began to pursue this dialogue with you is because of this statement: "There are many like you. 'I can't do anything about it SOOooo I will just continue enjoying the benefits and 'believe' that more good is being done than harm.'" Do not presume to know me or how I would act in an effort to make yourself look as if you know something I do not. I will admit that I am not the subject matter expert on tax law, or business law or the inner workings of the Jesters or anything like that. However, I AM the subject matter expert on how I WILL handle a situation that calls my character into question, or puts me in a position that may at a later time affect my moral character. "'Don't rock the boat'"....Well, I am rocking your boat right back at you and it seems that you can't handle a dose of your own medicine. To answer your question, no I have not had to take the same umbrage at my Shrine Temple, because to date, I have not been placed in a situation that would require me to act as such. But as I have said on more than one occasion (but you obviously skimmed over it while you were trying to pick apart my comments or you wouldn't have to ask), if or when I am placed in that situation, I would confront the issue even if it meant that I would be kicked out of the Shrine. And yes, I would confront the issue with the same vigor in which I am defending my position to you. By the way, I have nothing new to add because I have made my point. You have presented your facts and I have responded to those facts. You are so worried that I am "attacking" you, that you do not even pay attention to what I am saying so I am going to type it in a manner that will minimize the likelihood that you will miss it (AGAIN):

                      From post #20.1 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:00 AM EDT "I just hate to see a great organization that admittedly has some major problems in its management lose any more of its credibility than necessary. While I support what you are trying to do, I feel that too much generalization may irreparably damage the Shriners and ultimately, the Shriners Hospitals. That is why I now conclude every post with 'You can't judge the masses by the actions of the few.'I want everyone to know that there are still good and honorable Shriners in the organization that hate the state that the organization is in and want nothing more than to rid itself of these vermin called 'Jesters'." -and- From post #21 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:25 AM EDT "I am on your side on this discussion when it comes to the actions of the Jesters."

                      Hopefully this will clear any confusion there may be up. Now since I am the minority in this discussion, I am going to make this my last post. I am obviously never going to get my point across to you and you are never going to convince me that I am just as bad as the Jesters that have been convicted of interstate human trafficking and other crimes simply because I haven't "blown the whistle" yet. I have not had the need to blow the whistle yet. So I am just going to agree to disagree. If you would like, you can respond to this post so you can get the last word in. You seem like the type. Of course maybe that comment will dissuade you from proving me right. We'll see.

                      -NewShriner

                      • 1 vote
                      #21.2 - Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:49 AM EDT
                      Reply
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